“Out of My Thoughts” Director Amber Sealey on Casting Authenticity and Breaking Limitations | Interviews
Because the director of Disney+’s coming-of-age drama “Out of My Thoughts,” Amber Sealey was knee-deep for months in preproduction, as immersed within the artistic course of as she was within the technicalities that include helming a movie. However when it got here to the early moments on set with first-time actress Phoebe-Rae Taylor, who performs a nonverbal sixth-grade dynamo with cerebral palsy, Sealey typically discovered herself having fun with the younger star.
“I might give her an earwig and we might cowl it together with her hair, and whereas we had been filming, I might simply whisper by the microphone, saying issues to her that solely she might hear,” Sealey mentioned throughout a Zoom name in February. “And [there were] simply all kinds of video games and completely different workout routines and issues that I might do together with her, that she was prepared to do as a result of she’s by no means executed this earlier than.”
The movie, which additionally options Luke Kirby, Judith Light, Rosemarie DeWitt, and the voice of Jennifer Aniston, follows Taylor’s character, Melody Brooks, as she navigates center college and turns her struggles into triumphs.
Maybe as a filmmaker, discovering the stability of when to concentrate on the nitty-gritty and when to easily join with the actors comes with expertise. That’s one thing that Sealey, who nabbed a 2025 DGA Award for Excellent Directorial Achievement in Kids’s Applications for the movie, has a lot of.
Initially from England, raised in New Mexico, and now primarily based in Los Angeles, Sealey studied theater and trendy dance on the College of California, Santa Cruz, earlier than returning to England to check drama at The Royal Academy of Dramatic Artwork and the Central College of Speech and Drama. She spent years on display screen as an actress earlier than sinking her enamel into filmmaking.
“I used to be like, I’m not getting provided the form of roles that I wish to play, and that I do know I can play, so I’m gonna make a movie for myself,” Sealey mentioned. “It was solely on my third movie that I used to be like, neglect the performing half. I actually wish to concentrate on the writing and the directing, the storytelling.”
As a filmmaker, her credit embrace the nuanced true-crime drama “No Man of God” (2021), which explores the advanced relationship between FBI analyst Invoice Hagmaier and serial killer Ted Bundy in Bundy’s remaining years on loss of life row. Previous to that, Sealey earned accolades for her movies “No Gentle and No Land Anyplace” (2017), “Easy methods to Cheat” (2011), and “A Plus D” (2008).
“I noticed that is what I used to be meant to do,” she mentioned.
Sealey spoke with RogerEbert.com about her ups, downs, and roadblocks as a director, whether or not ladies face extra obstacles within the business, and her enjoyment of discovering the right “Melody” in Phoebe-Rae Taylor.
This interview has been edited for size and readability.
Hannah Loesch: We watched “Out of My Thoughts” for the second time final night time, and what stood out to me each instances is I simply can’t think about anybody enjoying Melody higher than Phoebe-Rae Taylor. Inform us concerning the casting course of and the way you knew that you just discovered your Melody in her. It’s attention-grabbing as a result of [“Out of My Mind”] is predicated on a ebook, so there are a variety of readers who would have already had an concept of their minds of who Melody was.
It was a extremely stunning course of, really. Our casting administrators, Kerry Barden and Paul Schnee, who reside in New York, had been such an integral a part of the method. It wasn’t like a standard casting course of in that we knew we wished to solid authentically. Which means we wished to solid someone who had CP and used a wheelchair. So we not solely reached out to businesses and administration firms, however we additionally reached out to CP organizations and bodily remedy places of work, and other people we knew who had CP.
And we had been like, are you aware someone else who has CP? We had been searching for a lady between the ages of 10 and 13 who has CP and has an curiosity in performing. And so it was a protracted course of. I interviewed so many superb children across the globe. We simply requested folks to take a video with their iPhone and ship in just a little snippet of themselves. And so we had so many great folks sending in movies, however Phoebe was someone who simply actually shone and stood out from the start. She was all the time someone who I simply couldn’t neglect about. However I’m a really anal individual, so I wished to actually be certain to observe each video and canopy each base.
However I simply stored coming again to Phoebe, and I used to be like, that is the lady. She lives in England, and I reside in Los Angeles, and after we first Zoomed, she simply charmed me a lot. She was so humorous and sensible and clearly stunning, but in addition variety and clever.
I keep in mind we went to Sharon Draper, the girl who wrote the novel. Sharon has a daughter with cerebral palsy who’s nonverbal, so she form of wrote it for her daughter. And so it was essential to us that whoever was enjoying Melody be someone that Sharon was on board with. And her phrases had been one thing to the impact of, “Signal her up shortly earlier than she will get too outdated to play the half.” So she was additionally utterly on board with Phoebe, and [it was] among the best decisions I’ve ever made.
HL: How did you’re employed with Phoebe to deliver the character to life and actually deliver the center to the character?
Effectively, I’m a private believer that there actually is one thing simply to the construction of 1’s face that lends itself to a sure kind of expression and openness. It actually typically is to do with, like, the set of your eyes. You understand, there’s typically beautiful, beautiful people who’re all the time enjoying the unhealthy man, and it’s simply due to how their face appears and issues like that, or how their face connects visually by the lens and the digicam and thru our TV screens.
We had been simply very fortunate when it comes to Phoebe’s personal facial make-up. She simply has that form of face and people sorts of eyes that pull you in and make you wish to join, wish to watch, and wish to perceive what she’s considering.
However then on prime of it, Phoebe was actually prepared to be open and attempt to work actually exhausting. As we mentioned, she’d by no means acted earlier than. So for me, it was actually enjoyable as a director as a result of I obtained to only do all of the instruments that I wished to do. I believe had she been extra skilled, she perhaps would have been like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, girl, I obtained it.” However as a result of she hadn’t executed it earlier than, I used to be like, Nice, I can do no matter I need! However once more, it’s all the way down to her willingness and her braveness and her tenacity that made all of it work.
CL: I really feel like there’s a unique philosophy from each director. A variety of them are tremendous technically targeted, they usually’re occupied with the pictures, after which there are people who find themselves extra targeted on working with actors on [character development]. What do you suppose is your primary job as a director on set?
A part of what I really like about directing is that you’re occupied with so many issues without delay. So you might be occupied with the technical side, you might be occupied with the story, you’re occupied with how this shot works when it comes to the edit in your head. You’re occupied with all of the completely different parts—even just like the background actors and the whole lot—on the identical time. And I really like what number of issues a director will get to maintain of their head at one time. That’s a giant a part of the job that I really like. I’m a believer that if the efficiency and the story are fascinating, the viewers will forgive all the remaining. So you’ll be able to haven’t as attention-grabbing digicam work or manufacturing design or costumes if the efficiency and the story are riveting. So to me, that’s the form of primary meat of the sandwich that that you must have.
And clearly, all of us need our movies to be aesthetically stunning and to be compelling and effectively composed. There’s a lot that goes into the construction of a shot previous to filming it, so a variety of that technical stuff comes in the course of the prep interval, while you’re selecting your lenses and also you’re selecting your digicam and also you’re making your shot checklist and also you’re planning that every one out.
Clearly, typically issues change on the day. Typically issues change on the day. However for me, the center of the manufacturing part is de facto the story and the efficiency, and the technical form of actually is available in in prep, after which it actually is available in in publish.
Each director has their very own particular manner of doing issues. Whether or not you’re an out of doors in or inside out form of director, it doesn’t matter. What issues is that the method that you’ve got is what’s best for you.
CL: Do you suppose that your years as an actress have formed who you might be as a director? And does that affect the best way that you just talk with actors in any respect?
For positive. I used to be by no means a brilliant well-known or profitable actor, so I used to be typically the day participant. And I keep in mind very effectively that feeling of strolling on set and simply having no concept who was who, what was what. Nobody would even inform me what was taking place within the scene.
There have been some superb administrators who had been very completely different. For instance, Andrea Arnold and Susanne Bier. I labored with them, they’re superb. However a variety of administrators simply didn’t even acknowledge me. Like they’d say hello and that was it. After which I used to be form of left to do no matter I assumed the scene wanted, however they simply didn’t give any notes, nothing. And so I had no idea of like, was I doing the fitting factor? Was I giving them what they wished? I had no concept. And in order that very a lot informs how I’m on set with the actors. Whether or not they’re the primary on the decision sheet or quantity 79, I actually really feel like all people that’s on set deserves to have an understanding of what’s happening, what’s taking place within the scene, why are we doing this scene, what’s it about, what are the expectations. And only for all people on set to know that they’re wished, they usually’re wanted, they usually’re an essential a part of the method.
HL: Again to “Out of My Thoughts”—folks with disabilities are nonetheless very underrepresented in Hollywood. I learn a terrific article that you just had been interviewed for in Selection. And I believe the statistic was 30 p.c of viewers and purchasers of streaming and movies are folks with disabilities, however solely about 5–7 p.c of actors are folks with disabilities. What do you suppose is the key barrier for change and progress on this space?
That’s such a terrific query. I imply, look, we’re in actually exhausting instances proper now. We now have an administration that overtly mocks folks with disabilities, and that’s accepted by many individuals. And so it’s a problem. I believe, traditionally, what has been a part of the issue was the form of “othering” of individuals with disabilities. Placing them in particular ed lecture rooms, not having an built-in classroom the place you could have individuals who establish as having disabilities and individuals who don’t studying collectively and rising collectively and forming group collectively.
I believe, traditionally, there’s been a lot disgrace positioned across the idea of getting a incapacity or being neurodiverse. Fortunately, I believe that’s altering. The youthful era now—I’m discovering that these younger children are pleased with their variations, their neurodiversities, their disabilities. And I believe that’s superior. The youthful era goes to save lots of us.
Having a incapacity or having a neurodiversity is nothing to be ashamed of. In reality, I might argue that it’s one thing to be pleased with. It typically makes you conscious or clever or artistic another way than someone who, say, doesn’t have that incapacity. So I believe our variations make us extra attention-grabbing, extra clever, simply probably extra artistic. So I believe the extra we be taught to eliminate the disgrace and be pleased with our variations, no matter they’re… One of many massive messages of the movie was that the onus just isn’t on the individual with a incapacity to make themselves heard. The onus is on us because the viewers to cease and pay attention, and directing this movie taught me a lot.
I believe previous to directing the movie, had I met someone who used AAC and was nonverbal, I might have been intimidated and I wouldn’t have recognized what to say or tips on how to say hello. And now I do know. I can say hello to them identical to I might anyone else. And do I want to attend and be affected person for them to take the time it takes to kind of their response with both their eyes or their fingers or nonetheless it’s they use the know-how? Sure, I do. I do have to learn to be affected person and wait and pay attention. However I believe we’re all higher off if we will all learn to try this.
CL: I really like the road in “Out of My Thoughts” to “presume competence.” There have been so a few years when folks had been employed to play folks with disabilities who didn’t have disabilities. Why?
Yeah. That phrase, “presume competence,” is a giant one within the incapacity group, and it was one which I realized when doing my analysis for the movie. I used to be like, Oh my God, we’ve gotta have someone say that within the movie.
Dr. Katherine Ray says that to Mr. Dimming, the trainer. She says, “look, presume competence, Mr. Dimming. And I believe you’ll be stunned.” And it’s true. I believe while you do, if you end up confronted with someone who talks otherwise, strikes otherwise, communicates otherwise than you do, for those who presume competence, you may be stunned and impressed.
HL: There’s one other marketing campaign that it jogs my memory of too, that went round not too long ago. A tremendous actress with Down syndrome, Madison Tevlin, mentioned, “Assume I can, and I’ll.” You understand, the one cause I can’t show myself is since you’re assuming that I can’t.
I believe this was executed so superbly in “Out of My Thoughts,” however even exterior of casting, how do you suppose that storytelling can evolve to symbolize folks with disabilities in a extra genuine manner?
One other good query. I imply, it’s exhausting and I want I had solutions for all these things. Typically I don’t know. I don’t know tips on how to make the world a greater place. I want that all of us knew extra. I imply, I believe it’s actually simply the extra we be taught to establish our personal prejudices and attempt to work exterior of them, the higher we’ll be working with folks, hiring folks, working for individuals who don’t appear to be you, don’t discuss such as you, don’t sound such as you, don’t talk such as you. All of that solely makes the world richer and higher.
So I believe the extra we will get exterior the field of all the time trying to work with individuals who really feel so acquainted, the extra genuine the storytelling can be. It’s not simply actors with disabilities that needs to be represented on display screen, though that actually is true. It’s additionally administrators and writers and producers with disabilities. It’s the individuals who get to determine what tales get funded and get advised and make their method to the large display screen. Ideally, the authenticity begins there.
CL: I wish to get again to directing for a second. I’ve learn previously couple of years so many tales of administrators—and hopefully it’s only a coincidence, however a variety of them are ladies, I’m unsure if that’s by design—however so many tales of ladies administrators who’re actually struggling to get jobs. Like, they’re advised they should shadow a bunch of productions totally free earlier than they even get a paid place. After which even that may not result in a job. They go to productions that they wish to work with they usually’re advised in order for you a directing job, make your personal movies and TV exhibits.
HL: And I’ve additionally heard tales of [studios] saying that that you must begin as an actor.
CL: Simply all these completely different hoops that they’ve to leap by, even when they’ve business expertise, to get a director job, And it simply blew my thoughts as a result of I by no means considered that earlier than. And clearly you’re doing tremendous effectively as a director now, however what did you expertise at the start of your profession? Did it’s important to overcome something like that the place it was troublesome to even get your foot within the door?
That’s a terrific query too. I did all that stuff. I needed to do all that stuff. I imply, I began out as an actor, so there you go. It wasn’t by design, however good to know that’s one of many issues that I used to be purported to do. However my begin as a filmmaker did start with me making my very own movie for myself to star in, as a result of I used to be like, I’m not getting provided the form of roles that I wish to play and that I do know I can play.
So I’m gonna make a movie for myself. And my first two movies, I did act in. And it was solely on my third movie that I used to be like, neglect the performing half. I actually wish to concentrate on the writing and the directing, the storytelling. And so then I noticed that is what I used to be meant to do. I imply, performing is my past love. I’ll all the time adore it. However once I realized that I used to be higher suited to being a director, it was a extremely stunning expertise of, like, the important thing lastly becoming into the lock form of factor. However yeah, I did a variety of shadowing. I did a variety of these applications. I don’t know why ladies need to show themselves in that manner so typically. I imply, perhaps I do know why, however everyone knows the problems of sexism. I don’t know what the answer is. In case you are courageous sufficient to only say, “you already know what, I’m going to do it my very own manner and I’m not going to do these issues,” that’s superior. I did these labs and I did that shadowing and I did that stuff as a result of I felt like I did have stuff to be taught. You understand, I began out as an actor. I went to drama college. I obtained a grasp’s in theater, however my solely movie college was doing a type of applications—the DWW, Directing Workshop for Girls, which is at AFI.
So previous to doing that, I did the Movie Impartial labs, and NBC labs, and a bunch of various applications. And never all of these applications are helpful. However a few of them are. I did glean rather a lot from these applications. It’s sophisticated—it’s not that I wanted to do them, as a result of I really feel like there was a variety of information that I already had. There was a variety of being form of force-fed stuff that I used to be like, I already know this. However for that one little kernel of knowledge that you just didn’t know, it was helpful to do. However yeah, there have been years once I was simply doing applications as a result of I felt like these had been notches on my belt that I needed to show myself in that manner. You understand, this business could be very sheep-like. If one individual says, “okay, we’re all going this fashion,” everybody goes, “okay, nice. We’re all going that manner, even when it’s leaping off a cliff.” So I believe for no matter cause, we’ve all determined that after you get these notches in your belt, okay, good. She will get the stamp of approval, you already know? Sadly, ladies appear to have to get these approval stamps greater than males do typically.
I imply, it’s so exhausting to generalize about the whole lot. All the pieces is a case-by-case scenario.
CL: I like your perspective, as a result of such as you mentioned, there’s stuff that you could be taught from all this stuff it’s important to do.
HL: And it’s all the time an excellent factor to all the time hold your thoughts open to studying.
CL: What do you would like that you just knew while you first began out your profession that you already know now?
Oh, good query. I believe once I was first beginning out, I assumed that there was this, like, particular desk on the prime, and all of the folks up there have been simply geniuses who knew a lot that I didn’t know. And to now notice, Oh, that doesn’t exist. I imply, actually, there are geniuses on this business. There are individuals who know greater than I. However I do deserve a seat on the desk.
And I believe for therefore a few years, I didn’t consider that I deserved a seat on the desk, and I don’t know if that was simply from my upbringing or rising up—my household didn’t have cash once I was rising up—[or if it was because] I didn’t have anyone within the business to assist me, or my gender, or what. It might have been so many issues. However I actually thought there was this echelon of Hollywood that was idyllic and everybody was working on the prime stage of their talents.
And it’s simply not that manner, you already know? So I assume I might say to younger folks beginning out is, to work exhausting. Actually, you could have stuff to be taught. I didn’t know the whole lot then that I do know now. But in addition, there’s not this secret society of people that know rather a lot higher than you or are a lot smarter, higher, extra deserving than you. You understand, it’s attainable for anybody, so long as you set within the time and the hassle and have the expertise.
HL: I believe a variety of instances folks’s confidence will get worn down, however it’s primarily based on one thing that’s not even actual.
CL: Yeah, severely. It’s like, Oh, I really feel, I really feel like I can’t have this, or I really feel like I can’t do that nearly as good as this individual above you. And all people most likely feels that regardless of the place they’re at.
Yeah. I imply, it would even be true. Look, there are actually filmmakers who will all the time carry out higher than I do. However that doesn’t imply that I don’t additionally deserve a slice of the pie to inform the story the best way I wish to inform the story, as a result of on the finish of the day, it’s additionally all subjective.
There are such a lot of movies that some folks love and different folks hate. Just about each single film that’s ever received an Oscar for Greatest Image, you could find an excellent 25 to 30 p.c of those that hated that film, you already know? So simply since you won’t do issues in addition to someone else does them, or as shortly as someone else does them, doesn’t imply that you just shouldn’t even be doing this job and collaborating on this business.
